Too Many Mornings

[Chris L]

Could somebody explain to me how "Too Many Mornings" fits into the plot of Follies? Sally's relationship with Ben is supposed to be something she invented out of a few fleeting moments of tenderness and a series of "I love you's" that Ben uttered after she threatened suicide. Yet, in "Too Many Mornings," Ben sings as though he genuinely wishes he'd chosen Sally over Phyllis. He tries to explain it away afterwards as the result of having gotten too caught up in the nostalgia of the evening, yet it comes across as such a passionate declaration of undying love that it's difficult to believe it's just the result of Ben's need for affection, both from others and from himself.

Or maybe it is the result of Ben's need for love, but if that's how he expressed himself to Sally when they were young, she certainly had concrete reason to believe that he loved her. What possesses Ben to sing, "Thousands of mornings/Dreaming of my girl"? That's a pretty bold statement for a man who supposedly harbors no feelings for her beyond friendship. On the basis of that song, Sally doesn't seem all that self-deluding, yet much of the show hinges on that self-delusion.

[valmont]

Chris, I totally agree.  I have always had difficulty with the accepted narrative of Sally's delusion.

[Chris L]

The only reasonable explanation I can come up with for the song is that it's about Ben's self delusion, not Sally's, his need to love himself through the love of others. He needs Sally to love him because he thinks it will make him feel better about himself, so he leads her on. Finally, he realizes what he's doing and shuts up.

[Chris L]

The more I think about Follies, the more I think it's deliberately structured as Greek tragedy, with Ben as the tragic hero. His obsessive need to find love from others destroys four lives, not only his own but Sally's, because Ben has led her to believe he loves her; Buddy's, because Sally loves Ben; and Phyllis's, because it's driven her husband to other women.

It may be a mistake to focus so completely on Sally as the central victim in the story. Everybody's a victim, including Ben himself. And his role as tragic hero is why he gets the final song.

[Chris L]

Nor is Sally truly self-deluding. It's pathetic that she's clung to the idea of this relationship for so many years while married to another man and perhaps pathetic that she believed Ben in the first place, but he's given her plenty of ammunition for that belief and he just can't stop doing so.

[Bobster]

You've made some amazingly valid points.

My opinions and such:  Ben's been drinking which breaks down inhibitions; with Sally there he's feeling his past like everyone else is--The Four feeling it a lot more since they are all "together again".  After his fracas with Phyllis he finds himself alone with Sally and confessing how he thinks Phyllis feels about him.  With Sally bringing up the past--"When I loved you and you loved me..."--he's filling up with emotional needs.  He asks if he did really love her and as he does so the memory of possibly their last night before he is off to war shows so strongly.  It is the First Time that any of The Four see the past ghosts (this is very specifically mentioned in the libretto as the first time--productions that have Phyllis see her young self before the "Bargains" speech with Buddy are incorrect) and don't just feel them; it is so alive and real that even though Sally says the same words as Young Sally all he sees is her Young self and gets in the revelry of her obsession--thinking that he has truly dreamt of her all these years (thanks to hooch and ghosts).  Ben is in love with what he remembers (in a film version, Young Sally would possibly disappear onto Sally at the final verse) and Sally still loves and wants Ben AS HE IS today--a love/lust/obsession that evolved/blossomed/poisoned her as the evening went on.  (I truly think that Sally was there to see him and think "If I see him, if I see how he is today it will break the spell and these feelings can stop.")

He believes what he's singing at that moment but the minute Sally mentions marriage it's a hangover remedy.

[scenicdesign71]

(I truly think that Sally was there to see him and think "If I see him, if I see how he is today it will break the spell and these feelings can stop.")

I like this motivation; it sounds refreshingly un-deluded and -Sally-like (viz. "the accepted narrative") and makes her subsequent headlong stumble (back) into his "folly" -- conveniently imagining himself to have been in love with her all these years, or ever -- all the more tragic.  And Ben being at least as desperately self-deluded as she is lays some nice groundwork for his eventual breakdown.

Keep this stuff coming; as much as I've always adored the idea (and the score) of Follies, it's never quite grabbed me in the same way as Sweeney or Sunday, and that's due largely to questions like @Chris L 's.  It would help if I could somehow get a more pungent sense of what these people's lives and relationships were like before.

"Waiting For The Girls Upstairs" is a great start, but only a start; and the handful of tiny "ghost dialogue" snippets make a surprisingly slim basis for understanding where The Four came from.  They're like a remnant of the show's original mystery structure, but they don't quite pay off; what we eventually learn about these four young people consists of quick, sparse, and -- as Chris's original question suggests -- rather blurry strokes.

I almost wish the final Follies sequence devoted more time and serious attention to the Young Four who, as it stands, are reduced to a single fairly-generic group novelty number which adds next to nothing to our understanding of them, or their later selves, either as individuals, couples, or a romantic quadrangle.  Thinking of London's gender-flipped Company, I wonder if there's a simple twist that might snap Follies into clearer focus for me: don't hate me, @Bobster , this is just a thought experiment -- but what if "Buddy's Blues," "Losing My Mind," "Lucy and Jessie" and "Live, Laugh, Love" were performed, in part (as in many of the other diegetic songs, e.g. "One More Kiss") or entirely, by the Young Four?

<crickets>

Okay, I'mma shut up now.

[AmyG]

I don't have much to add but just wanted to say I'm enjoying this discussion. I think maybe I was the one to bring this up after we saw Follies in London. I know Chris and I discussed it. Now that I'm getting up there in years (even older than the "present day" characters) I know how tricky memories can be and the emotions that come along with them. I think that's a lot of what Follies is all about.